Beautiful essay, yes certainly it seems that thematically the river is no longer enchanted because Belit has died. Interesting fact; he later recruits another crew full of Africans so to speak, takes on her reputation as his own and builds up a pirate-rep. But the difference is that as seen in Hour of the Dragon, he loves that crew and fights savagely to save them, and they in turn love him. I'd say they love him and revere him more than their predecessors did Belit because in this case it is reciprocal.
That said, Belit certainly does play the role of Pagan goddess and fancies herself one, and she has little regard for others. The funny thing is that her 'successor' in Conan's bed, Valeria is far more loyal, and struggles with the idea of abandoning men to die such as Conan. In this relationship it is complicated as she gives herself by story's end to Conan with few conditions placed on him, and the relationship is certainly strange.
As to Zenobia I'd argue it is a complete and utter and total love as we understand it to-day.
That matches my intuition. I haven't read Red Nails yet, but it seems to me that each of Conan's loves adds another love. Belit is just Eros, which by itself is strong but selfish. Valeria, I'm guessing, is Eros plus Philia. And with Zenobia, we reach Eros plus Philia plus Agape. And now you have a woman to build a family with. Haven't read enough to be sure of that, but those are my thoughts right now.
That’s it exactly, though for some reason when I proposed that Valeria is still alive by HotD and is the unmentioned potential mother of some of Conan’s daughters, who stays in the harem more often than not some freaked out.
My view is she’s the filial one and seems to revere Conan too much to an extent. He seems to regard her as his equal. But it’s not the same as his passion and devotion to Zenobia.
If I had to wager a guess, I think part of the reason people freak out about that idea is because of Valeria's portrayal in the '82 movie. Like Bêlit, she returns from the dead to save him, and as a Valkyrie no less. I suspect the impact of that moment colors people's ideas of what must've happened to Valeria after Red Nails, because it is a high impact scene in the movie. Conan's arguably at his lowest point in the movie when that happens, beset on all sides and about to die. It's only by Valeria's intervention that he's not only saved, but gains the peace of mind of knowing that she's earned an honored place in the afterlife.
But the fact is that Red Nails gives no answer as to how long she lives after that story. (There may be hints to her fate in Hour of the Dragon, but I'd have to reread it to see if that's the case.) Unfortunately, we can't know what Howard's plans for Valeria after Red Nails were, or if he even had a plan for her, because Red Nails was the last Conan story he wrote.
Beautiful essay, yes certainly it seems that thematically the river is no longer enchanted because Belit has died. Interesting fact; he later recruits another crew full of Africans so to speak, takes on her reputation as his own and builds up a pirate-rep. But the difference is that as seen in Hour of the Dragon, he loves that crew and fights savagely to save them, and they in turn love him. I'd say they love him and revere him more than their predecessors did Belit because in this case it is reciprocal.
That said, Belit certainly does play the role of Pagan goddess and fancies herself one, and she has little regard for others. The funny thing is that her 'successor' in Conan's bed, Valeria is far more loyal, and struggles with the idea of abandoning men to die such as Conan. In this relationship it is complicated as she gives herself by story's end to Conan with few conditions placed on him, and the relationship is certainly strange.
As to Zenobia I'd argue it is a complete and utter and total love as we understand it to-day.
That matches my intuition. I haven't read Red Nails yet, but it seems to me that each of Conan's loves adds another love. Belit is just Eros, which by itself is strong but selfish. Valeria, I'm guessing, is Eros plus Philia. And with Zenobia, we reach Eros plus Philia plus Agape. And now you have a woman to build a family with. Haven't read enough to be sure of that, but those are my thoughts right now.
That’s it exactly, though for some reason when I proposed that Valeria is still alive by HotD and is the unmentioned potential mother of some of Conan’s daughters, who stays in the harem more often than not some freaked out.
My view is she’s the filial one and seems to revere Conan too much to an extent. He seems to regard her as his equal. But it’s not the same as his passion and devotion to Zenobia.
If I had to wager a guess, I think part of the reason people freak out about that idea is because of Valeria's portrayal in the '82 movie. Like Bêlit, she returns from the dead to save him, and as a Valkyrie no less. I suspect the impact of that moment colors people's ideas of what must've happened to Valeria after Red Nails, because it is a high impact scene in the movie. Conan's arguably at his lowest point in the movie when that happens, beset on all sides and about to die. It's only by Valeria's intervention that he's not only saved, but gains the peace of mind of knowing that she's earned an honored place in the afterlife.
But the fact is that Red Nails gives no answer as to how long she lives after that story. (There may be hints to her fate in Hour of the Dragon, but I'd have to reread it to see if that's the case.) Unfortunately, we can't know what Howard's plans for Valeria after Red Nails were, or if he even had a plan for her, because Red Nails was the last Conan story he wrote.
Honestly we get no hints of Valeria’s fate but yeah you’re right that most people’s views are coloured by the movie.
Weirdly I didn’t like her in the movie, and so was pleased to find her an utterly different character in the books.